25 min read

Transcript: Key Strategies for Developing the Next Generation of Leaders // Alec Hill, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship

The Flourishing Culture Podcast Series

“Key Strategies for Developing the Next Generation of Leaders “

February 21, 2022

Alec Hill

Intro: What would happen in your organization if a top leader was, as they say, hit by a bus? Well, today we talk to a leader who was and lived to talk about it. Listen in as we learn how to prepare our organization for the next generation by investing in rising leaders.

Al Lopus: Hi, I'm Al Lopus, and you're listening to the Flourishing Culture Podcast, where we help you create a flourishing workplace. The problem employers are facing today is that more of our employees are quitting than ever before. Some people are calling this the great resignation. And now with millions of open jobs, how can churches, Christian non-profits, and Christian-owned businesses face this tidal wave of resignations while attracting new, outstanding talent? And we know that having a flourishing workplace with fully engaged employees is the solution. I'll be your guide today as we talk with a thought leader about key steps that you can take to create a flourishing workplace culture.

So, now let's meet today's special guest.

Developing future leaders is an important part of a healthy organization and is core to long-term flourishing. It begs the question, though, who is engaged in coaching the next generation of leaders in your organization? Does the process include a focus for spiritual maturity as well as leadership principles? Well, we'll address these topics and also consider fruitfulness in different seasons of life with our guest today.

I'm delighted to welcome Alec Hill to the podcast today. Alec is the president emeritus of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. He's a cancer survivor and the author of a great book, Living in Bonus Time, as well as Just Business, a book on Christian ethics. Currently, Alec's focus is coaching emerging leaders. Welcome back to the Flourishing Culture Podcast, Alec.

Alec Hill: Well, Al, it's always great to be with you. Thanks.

Al: Yeah. Well, Alec, I know that you're an avid reader. So what are one or two of the most important or, at least, interesting books that you've read in the past year?

Alec: You mean besides yours?

Al: Yeah, there you go. Yeah.

Alec: Well, I had to get the plug in there somewhere.

Al: Yeah, absolutely.

Alec: And by the way, I was one of the readers, so I really committed. I’m glad it’s coming out in April. So I commend that to everyone.

But the other book is a book called Mission at Nuremberg, written by a guy named Tim Townsend. And it's about an American German Lutheran who was a chaplain during World War II, and he speaks fluent German. And then after the War, they assigned him to the Nuremberg war criminals, where he has, I think, 20 or so not the highest-level, Goering and some of these others, as his church, if you will. So he has to be—so for a period of time, I think it goes about a year, he's their chaplain. And all the internal turmoil he goes through, how do I present the Gospel of grace to the men who have committed these horrific, the worst war crimes maybe in, certainly in the century, maybe in time. And so it's this internal dialog about how he struggled with the Gospel of grace in the context where these men deserve to be damned, and his own journey on that. It’s fascinating.

Al: Wow. Wow. Yeah. What a confrontation, just of life. Great suggestion. Well, I'll add the second one to the list. The first one is my book. I've already read that and more.

Alec: A few times.

Al: Yeah, yeah. And thanks for your help on that, Alec. It was very good.

So Alec, you had an unusual transition out of leadership at InterVarsity because of a life-threatening diagnosis. And perhaps unusual is just understated. And you literally had to drop everything and focus on your own health. It was not an ideal succession process. How did that go for the organization? And looking back, were there some leaders and foundational principles that you had put in place that supported such a quick and surprising move?

Alec: Well, you know, it's interesting. I hear board members and executives talk about getting hit by a bus. They talk about it as if it's sort of this isolated possibility. And for most organizations, ministries, it is. But InterVarsity, I got hit by a bus. So from the time of being diagnosed with bone-marrow cancer and a second opinion until the time we exited, it was six weeks. So imagine this for your ministry. Your executive director is doing fine. I've been at it 14 years. And six weeks later, he or she is gone. I mean, move 2,000 miles away. Gone off the radar.

But our board, thankfully, talked about succession a lot. And I’ve read some recent statistics. This is not common. Most non-profits, Christian or not, they do not engage in significant conversations about succession. Often, I guess the executive director is too insecure or the board is too cautious. But mine was not.

And so my insecurities aside, we had a short-term and a long-term plan. Short-term plan is the obvious one, where you have your number-two person. In my case, it was Jim Lundgren, who had been my senior VP for 12 years. He stepped in for a year as an interim. If you don't have that, you're really in trouble. But the long-term thing we did was five years earlier we had put in place a cohort of 15 rising leaders. It cost us a couple hundred thousand dollars to do it. But for two years, we mentored, coached, sent them to school. We met together. We brought in John and Nancy Ortberg for a whole week. I mean, we did remarkable things with this group, and they are now leading the ministry. If you look at where they are—and, actually, we did a second cohort with another 14, so those 29 leaders dominate the VP-, senior-leadership ranks. Tom Lin, who's current president and has been for now the last five years, was already a VP, but I did some special things for him in terms of his education and training. So I'm thankful that the board pressed the issue. And if we have any trustees out there on boards, I would say press this issue. Even if you have a new executive director, don't wait, because people get hit by busses.

Al: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you were standing at the refrigerator, as I recall, and you fainted and had no idea what had caused that, but you were smart enough to at least pursue—

Alec: No, no. I wasn’t smart enough.

Al: Oh.

Alec: I waited. I didn’t tell my wife, and I got back to Madison. I was in Seattle at my daughter’s wedding when I fainted. It was after the wedding. And then, a few weeks later, I was talking to my pastor.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: And he said, “You've lost seven pounds, you fainted, and you haven't told your wife?” And he wagged his finger at me, and he said, “If you don't tell her, I will.”

Al: Yeah.

Alec: So I went home and told Mary. And then I scooted down, and my primary-care doctor was out, so I saw another doctor, who, when she looked at my blood-cell numbers, she just got me at the front of the line. So this woman saved my life, because—

Al: Yeah.

Alec: —if it had been delayed—I was originally scheduled to be another month before I got in to the oncologist—I probably wouldn't have made it.

Al: Yeah, wow. Yeah.

So, right now, you're active in coaching emerging leaders, and I love what you're doing. And they're the emerging leaders within InterVarsity. So let's start with the spiritual development of a leader. What do you emphasize in this aspect of your coaching, Alec?

Alec: So, let me let me define our terms, first, okay?

Al: Yeah.

Alec: So you have spiritual directors—

Al: Uh-huh.

Alec: —and most are kind of—I'm not a spiritual director. The other side, you have coaches who tend to deal with specific skillsets that are work related, and they're tangibly trying to solve problems. In the middle of those two is mentoring, okay? So that's the third category. So mentors, we kind of have this wonderful place of supposed wisdom, and we go into coaching. I do a lot of coaching. I also do some spiritual formation. I wouldn't call it spiritual direction, because that’s spiritual formation. So I think it's helpful to define those three on the left if you want. I'm using my hands, here. Spiritual director on the left, mentoring in the middle, and then being a coach is on the right.

So, I currently have 19 people I'm mentoring, which sounds like a lot. But if you have 22 work based in a month, that's only one person a day. So it's an hour call a day. So it really doesn't add up that much, although emotionally you get very tight with people. There's no set curriculum. What happens is the mentee has a felt need, and 24 hours before a call, has to send me an email saying, “These are the things I want to talk about today.” And they can be very technical coaching things. They can be spiritual formation in terms of “The Lord is not close to me right now. I’m not feeling it.” Or often, it’s in the sense of how do I handle wisdom?

So, interestingly, Leighton Ford is my mentor. So he just turned 90, and we talk monthly. So I learn a lot. I learned everything from Leighton Ford, let me just say.

So, what happens is if a person comes in and their felt need is a particular issue, like, How do I manage my supervisor better? How do I roll out a program? that tends to be more in the coaching. But if it's resolving a conflict, you can see how this goes from being a coaching issue to a mentoring, because there's wisdom involved. And so I don't try to talk more than 40 percent. I mean, I try to keep it under that. But coaches often talk less than 20 percent, and coaches tend to ask a lot of questions. And spiritual directors don't talk very much, either. So, I like the mentoring bucket because it gives me a chance to talk more. That's the truth of the matter.

But, let's talk about transition. So, a person applies for a job, but doesn't get it.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: So let me go back. So a person’s applying for a job, so I do a mock interview with him. That's what coaching’s like. If they don't get the job, they're in the toilet, and the first time in their lives, they've hit a wall, and they've been told that they weren't as good as the other person. I mean, the huge identity issues, the sense of, “I thought the Lord was leading me in this direction.” So I've become kind of an expert in transitions, and that covers all three buckets.

And then self-doubt can sometimes set in. Who am I, and where am I going? And I'm 38 years old, and it’d all been up, and now I’ve hit this ceiling, and do I belong here? Is this the community that I thought it was? So, spiritual development emerges from these conversations. I don't lead with spiritual development, but it inevitably comes out. So I begin to ask questions like, what spiritual disciplines are you utilizing? Solitude, journaling, confession. Do you have a small group or friends? Some of just the basics. What do you think the Lord is trying to teach you through this failure or through this struggle or through this conflict? And what are you learning about yourself, good and bad? That's a profound question. What does this say about your family of origin? What does it say about who—is your identity really in Christ or is it really in your achievements? I mean, those are gut-wrenching things. And I'll tell you one thing I've learned, Al: sanctification is a very slow process.

Al: Right. Yeah. Through experiences, yeah. Those are just great principles, Alec. Thanks.

You know, in the area of developing leadership skills, are there some tools or assessments that you have found helpful in your coaching as you're helping people grow and develop? I'm interested in what some of your techniques are.

Alec: Yeah. So, I don't have a—they decide what they're going to send me. Often, they don’t send me—I will ask them—StrengthsFinders, this course risen up, as being, you know, these are my five big ones, and here's my five weakest. And that's helpful. Myers-Briggs, of course, is always interesting. People always bring that up. Enneagrams have risen in the last five years. You know, I'm a three with a seven wing. You know, all this technical language of people coming out. There's a test called the Hogan, which is expensive, and I think it's the best. It takes polarities like caution and risk, and it shows you where you are on a scale. It's pretty psychologically rooted, unlike some of the others I've mentioned. It's scientific. The Hogan—are you familiar with the Hogan? Have you ever heard of that?

Al: I'm not, Alec. You know, that’s—

Alec: I'll send you some stuff on it.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: I just found it to be the most fascinating discovery about who I am on many of these tests. And then sometimes people will send me their annual evaluations if they really want me to see, especially if they're having a conflict with their supervisor. But again, I'm a little less about skill-set development and more about the mentoring piece. But how to build a team, how to do a performance review, how to discipline someone progressively, you know, due process and notice, I do all those things.

Al: Yeah. Right. Wow. Yeah. Basically, almost one mentee a day throughout the month. Yeah.

Well, I'm looking forward to hearing more about that. So, you know, your coaching has put you in touch. You're in a unique place for a Boomer leader, who's CEO or has been, and you're in a unique place, where you’re in touch with the next generation on a real gut level. What are some of the discoveries or qualities that you've experienced and are excited about as you have gotten to know these emerging leaders? What can you share with leaders who are out there today?

Alec: Well, one of the funny things, Al, is I know much more about InterVarsity today than I ever did when I was president.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: I mean, I was in a bubble. And of course, I knew what the vice president shared up.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: But I'm in touch with people all over the country, at all levels and all ages. There's a circle around the executive team in Madison, Wisconsin, that I don't touch. I don't touch their reports, because I—so we've created some distance there. But I'm kind of the John Quincy Adams of InterVarsity. And remember, John Quincy Adams was president for a term, and then he went back to the House of Representatives for 24 years. So, because of my cancer, I'm no threat to anybody. And now, my age on top of that. And so it's just such a real privilege.

So, I'm actually taken by sort of the Xers and the older Millennials. That's the group that I tend to work with. I find them to be really missional. I mean, these are people who really love God. They're pious. They also want to do His mission in the world, and I don't see any drop off at all. You know, we Boomers are a proud group, but I think as I look at this group, they’re taking the baton really well. They are motivated, and I mentioned the word pious.

And by the way, about 12 of my mentees are in InterVarsity and the other, say, seven are not. So I have some from Regent College in Canada, and I've got some strays, people who’ve just found me. So, I mean, strays is a term I don’t know how to [unclear 14:09]. What I mean is they don't fit into a normal sort of category.

Al: Yeah, right.

Alec: And what I see is a global sense of the mission of the church, and of course, technology has a lot to do with that. And they are collaborative as a group, much more so—I think as Boomers, I mean, I'm a competitive person. I’m not proud of my competitiveness. I'm not ashamed of my drive, but I am of my need to compete. I'm the third of three boys. I guess I got that early. But I think generationally, what I'm seeing is a much more collaborative spirit and understanding that we don't have John Wayne Lone Rangers, we have people who work in teams, and they get that. And the vulnerability and the sharing, I feel less machismo, if I can use that term.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: So I'm encouraged by it. And I find them to be curious. I find learners, people who are not—how do I say?— they're not wrapped up in a self-enclosed box and not open to new ideas. I hear a lot of trash talk, especially, you know, as we all get older, we all tend to—but I'm not going to trash talk this next generation at all. I find them to be exceptional. And I think the fact that they're leading as a group, as teams, much better than Boomers did is very encouraging to me.

Al: When you say pious, Alec, what do you mean by that?

Alec: I mean there's a depth of spiritual formation. There's a wider—I think what happened is as Boomers, maybe we slotted and segmented our spirituality.

Al: Mm-hmm.

Alec: And so if I go to church, if I read my Bible. But I think there's a wider range of tools, if you will. So the whole introduction of spiritual formation and spiritual direction is a new sort of avenue in direction reflection. Of course, we always have small groups, but the sense of vulnerability of transparency, I think is—

Al: Right.

Alec: —and maybe that is something we gave them or something they picked up, but they've taken it to a new level. So I think there are some areas where there's just a better understanding of maybe a little less of an engineering approach to spirituality and a little bit more of an artist. I mean, if I can use that term.

Al: Sure, yeah. Right.

Alec: I think the spirituality I was taught and adopted for all could be fairly mechanical. Now, I do believe in habits. So what's happened is, let me just play with that little bit.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: So I think the shift from an engineering model, if you do one, two, three, four, then you come out the other side to an order of life. And the habits comes out of the monastic era. So this idea, what are the habits that I set? I’m not legalistic, but let’s say it’s the Sabbath. You know, what habits do I get myself into? How do I do my calendar in terms of the big rocks first with my family and my solitude and all that. So I sense a health with that—

Al: Yeah.

Alec: —and or an encouragement with that.

Al: That's great.

Alec: Do you see that? I mean, you're the guy who's out there all the time. Do you see it as well?

Al: I definitely see it. And quite frankly, when I was visiting you in the early years at InterVarsity, I was introduced as I was talking with some of the leaders there. You know, the spiritual formation, those things were never something that we were involved in as Protestants growing up in the faith. That just wasn't a term. You know, you didn't take a spiritual day, for example, to develop your own relationship with Christ. Those are new tools that clearly are part of this next generation than they were when we were growing up, that's for sure. Yeah.

Alec: Let me use an analogy. So, I’m a crummy golfer, and when I tee up the ball, I go through one, two, three, four, back swing, and then I mechanically come through the ball. My boss, when he would hit the ball, I swear he closed his eyes. I mean, it was like Bruce would just swing the golf club, and it would just go off 200 yards. And so to me that's kind of the difference between the spirituality I want versus the spirituality I had for a better part of my life. I wanted to be more like Muhammad Ali than those Eastern European boxers, right, who were stiff, and Ali was still fluid.

Al: I trust you’re enjoying our podcast today. We’ll be right back after an important word for leaders.

Female: As we come through the COVID-19 crisis, leaders everywhere are asking, how do we understand the tensions our employees are experiencing coming back to work? How do we keep our employees engaged, hold on to our best talent, and position ourselves to thrive as an organization going forward? If you're looking for a way forward, the Best Christian Workplaces Institute can guide you onto the road to a flourishing workplace.

The first step to begin the journey is our well-known Employee Engagement Survey. This proven online tool pinpoints where your organization is already strong and where you can improve your employees’ workplace experience, resulting in more productive people. That's right. You'll have more engaged, productive, and fulfilled people. Time-consuming guesswork won't get you there. Instead, let us help you with a fact-based, hope-inspiring action plan that only our Employee Engagement Survey and skillful coaching can provide. Sign up now to begin the journey to build a flourishing workplace culture and a thriving organization. Find out more at bcwinstitute.org.

Al: And now, back to today’s special guest.

Alec: Now, I’m a lawyer, so I'm still stuck with who I am. And I do believe, you know, that I do have a—I try to get a quiet time every morning. I do have habits. But there's less legalism, I guess is another way to look at it, and more joy.

Al: Yeah. And flow.

Alec: And flow. Flow as well. It’s nimble. It feels less stiff.

Al: Yeah. Yep, good. Yeah.

So, Alec, when you were the president of InterVarsity, you were mentoring people who were reporting to you. And you know, of course, we encourage leaders to mentor those that report to them. But how is it different now in this role of coming alongside as a seasoned leader, not in the reporting line? And does it make you think of anything you would have done differently when you were actually the boss in a direct leadership role?

Alec: The easy thing about my role right now is I develop people, but I don't evaluate them.

Al: Mm-hmm.

Alec: And those are two functions. So when you're supervising someone, you do both.

Al: Mm-hmm.

Alec: And there's always a conflict between the two. Okay? Let’s just call it. Because is the person really going to trust you with their heart of hearts and soul of souls when they know at the end of the year they're going to get a written evaluation and your assessment of them, and you're going to promote them or not? So, first of all, it's just much easier now. And the image I have, when I was dean of a business school, we had a tenure committee, where all the tenured faculty would evaluate a non-tenured faculty-member’s portfolio. But we had a person who was designated to be the mentor of the non-tenured faculty. So he left the tenure committee. So even though he was a full faculty member, full professor, he did not sit in judgment. So this idea of being able to really mentor at the same time really evaluate is trickier. Much trickier. So, it can be done. I just think it's harder. It's harder.

So, one of the things I wish I’d done more of is, especially with some of my younger VPs, who are just coming up, I wish I had required them to get an outside mentor—

Al: Yeah.

Alec: —because I think there's limitations of what a supervisor can do. Now, having said that, I had a VP who was marvelous at doing both simultaneously, but that's a real gift. Most of us, it's harder, especially when we have difficult conversations with someone who is not measuring up in a performance area, and we have to have the hard conversation. And that's why they say it's lonely at the top, because you end up having to judge or critique everyone below you, and sometimes they pull back.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: And so they're not that open flower that's just waiting for you with—mixing metaphors—with open arms. “Critique me, please.”

You know, what's interesting with mentees, I just got a call earlier today, and I'm being really, really candid with this person. I'm saying things that are direct. I’m asking hard questions. I'm putting my finger in the wound, even. But it's not as threatening if I had been that person’s supervisor—

Al: Yeah.

Alec: —because this mentee knows that I'm there to help. I'm more of a physician, you know, who's trying to help than I am a judge behind the bench making a critique. I think when people stiff your motivation—well, stiff is how the role is set up, right?

Al: Yeah, right.

Alec: Right now, the only reason I have to be in their lives is to help them. It's what I do. I have 30 pounds less of stress on my back every day because I do this role rather—no. I don't want to discourage people who are currently in senior-leadership positions at all. It was a great season. But I do want them to know that there may come a season when your baby mentoring, like I'm doing, and it's absolutely liberating. It's wonderful.

Al: That’s fascinating. And as you’re even talking, Alec, and I think of leaders out there listening, there aren't a lot of organizations that are investing in mentoring of the next generation. I mean, there's a lot of performance-evaluation conversations, how to have crucial conversations, and they're kind of expecting that in the workplace. But there isn't much investing in mentoring, having mentors like you, experienced leaders, who are mentoring 19 or 20 people.

Alec: So at InterVarsity, there are four of us on the team, and we're all kind of at the tail end of our careers. So one headed up the international student ministries, one was the vice president, there's me, and then one was a regional director.

Al: Wow.

Alec: So I'm the only male. There's three women and me. And the point is, I mean, when I retire next year, I'm going to keep doing this as a volunteer for other organizations. There are people who are nearing the end of their time. They're no longer either want to be or should be line supervisors, but they have use.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: This is a perfect place, again, if they're decent listeners, if they're compassionate, and if they have some wisdom. But if you're going to last, let’s say The Navigators, you’re a person who’s 68, and this is a great place for that 68-year-old for a period of time. And I just, you know, love it. I love it so much. Again, when I officially retire, I'm not going to stop.

Al: Yeah. Right. And yeah, I remember being in those conversations, “Well, if you didn't get paid for what you're doing, would you still do it?”

Alec: And the answer is an emphatic yes.

Al: Yeah, yeah. Good for you.

Alec: You know, back to your question earlier about the cancer.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: So I came out of the cancer, and I had a year of isolation. I had a lot of time to think about it and a lot of time to listen to the Lord. And I really felt this—I'm not the most pastoral person by temperament. That's what's funny about what I'm doing now. And I’m Type A. I'm a strategic planner. Get it done. But that existential crisis that I went through, the existential slap of cancer changed me enough so that I became softer, more relational. And I think this has just been a glove in the hand. I mean, it just fits so well. And virtually every call I come off thinking, I'm a better, richer person for having been in that conversation.

Al: Wow. Yeah, that’s great.

Well, Alec, for those that are listening, that might be facing a transition out of their career in the near future, share your thoughts on having an organizing principle for your life. I mean, we were at a Murdock conference recently, and you kind of shared this idea of an organizing principle for your life. And as I'm looking at the succession and transition, you encourage me to do that. So how have you decided what to focus on in this season? What's your organizing principle for life?

Alec: So, I just wrote a piece on this for Christian Leadership Alliance, and I don't know if in your podcast, if you can put a link or anything like that, but it's called Transitioning. And so just in terms, core activity your whole professional life. And so for me, that was the World Relief job, it was South Pacific University, and then it was InterVarsity. You know, 40 to 70 hours a week of a core job. There comes a point, if you live, where you move out of a core activity into what I'll call a portfolio.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: And a portfolio is where you have your teacher, you're on a board here, you have grandchildren over here, you have the food bank. I mean, you have this, and there's not a core activity which dominates. You have a portfolio of multiple bosses, and it can be a little confusing. It's a very different paradigm. It's a very different way of life.

So for me, the organizing principle is the filter through which I accept or deny opportunities. And for me, the organizing principles, I invest in rising leaders, and that's sort of the line I use. So do I go on a board? Do I take a consulting assignment? I mean, it goes on. Now, I have more opportunities because the roles I've played in the past probably than some people do, and I'm grateful for that. That's not really merit. That's just rank and privilege. I mean, it really is privilege. But by having an organizing principle, it filters, like I said, for me what to do.

So what I recommend to people is they find an anchor commitment of 10-plus hours a week. Again, that could be grandchildren. That could be serving on boards. That could be writing. It can be volunteering. It can be tutoring. But one activity that you know is going to be there sort of week by week, month by month, and everything else—it's the inner part of the circle of your chart. Then, you begin to build out on these optional things that come and go. So if a gig comes for me and then disappears, in other words, it’s a one-time, I’m not thrown off, because I know I have this anchor commitment.

For me, my anchor commitment is mentoring. I mean, that's what I do, again, with these 19 people that I meet with. But again, I'm not saying that's what’s for everybody. And then, you have to relearn time-flow management.

So it's true, when I was president of InterVarsity and I worked too many hours, it was overwhelming. I had a certain type of time-flow management, but I knew who my boss was. I had one boss, the chair of the board of the board. And then I had seven people that reported to me. I had my family. So there was a sense of time-flow management where it was all within one bucket. But when you move to multiple buckets, sometimes there is a dearth of activities and board, and sometimes there's a flood, and there's the sense of not being—even if you felt out of control when you're a senior leader, it's even more out of control in terms of these buckets because stuff appears and opportunities appear. And I won't even go to meet—people call me there. And even with COVID, I get these kind of strange—Al, you know what I mean—this out-of-the-blue kind of request.

Al: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Alec: And so I put it through the filter. Is this investing in rising leaders? Do I have a relationship with this person? Is this going to last some time? But I have to relearn my time-flow management. So that means very like—so with my wife, I've made certain commitments, especially because I cheated her so many years of me traveling, that we will do. So my whole calendar for 2022 in terms of our camping trips was planned out six months ago—

Al: Wow.

Alec: —because I made the commitment to her. That's the biggest rock in terms of my time management. And then grandchildren, and then goes from there.

So I think this time-flow management—I'm still will be learning, right? I'm still making mistakes.

Al: Mm-hmm. Right.

Alec: Sometimes I go, “How did I get so crazy busy?” And I had a teaching gig this last fall, which I've done four times. I'm not going to do again just because it's too crowded.

Al: Yeah, yeah.

Alec: And by the way, my greatest fear during that year of isolation was, everybody's going to forget about me. I'm going to be useless on the shelf. And it's the fear that gripped me a little bit. And here now, six years later, man.

Al: Yeah. Yeah, that’s great news for all leaders. Yeah, that's great.

Well, these are great insights, Alec. What a bonus. What a treasure.

Well, you know, speaking of bonus, while you use the term bonus time since you came through your cancer recovery, what are some of the qualities of this season for you? Can you share some of the good attributes? And maybe there are some harder realities at this point. What have you discovered?

Alec: So, when you get an existential slap like bone-marrow cancer, there's continuity and discontinuity. The continuity is, I'm still—you know, I have my brother's cells, and by the way, his DNA. I often, when I do something stupid, I blame it on Grant because they killed all my white cells gave me his. But largely, there's a lot of continuity in terms of who I was, but there's a lot of discontinuity, and it's better. This is a better version of who I am than not. I am much more relational than I've ever been. I would never have used the word pastoral to describe myself. Well, maybe that's too weak. You know, my Young Life guys back at [unclear 30:55] High School might disagree. But I'm not really that pastoral. But I have become much more empathetic and sympathetic and feel. I think on the Myers-Briggs scale, I've probably moved up on that scale a lot. I'm less future oriented. I’m a planner. I’m a crazy planner. And even though I plan vacations, Al, like I said earlier, I live more in today. And for some people that’s—by the way, I believe people live in three tenses. They either live in the past, the present, or the future, and I'm a person who's always lived in the future.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: That's been wonderful in the sense that I drive and I push, but you miss so much in the present. And so I am less future oriented, and I'm more present tense. My purpose is sharper because I realized I have less time to live. With bone-marrow survivors, typically, the oncologist told me, there's 10 years’ shorter life. He said, with me, it’s probably five. But you know, I turn 70 next year. So am I going to live to 80? Am I going to live to 85? Before cancer I would have thought that I’d live to 85 or 90. But because the time is short—it's called time-span theory—everything comes into focus in terms of what's important. For the first time, and Al, you’ve probably faced this, the first time in your life, you go, “Oh, I'm not going to be here forever. What do I want to get done? What's really…?” And of course, it really comes down to cleaning up our relationships, loving the people that we're supposed to love.

I do find in this sense of being more candid, so I could have been a diplomat, I think, you know, because that's kind of who I am. Not anymore. I'm candid now. Matter of fact, I'd say that maybe I'm a little too blunt, but I'm bolder than I used to be. And I like my—so I won't share which side of the equation I'm on, but it was a political discussion with a cousin, and I just made a very strong, declarative statement. And we're driving home, and Mary, my wife, looks at me. She says, “That was wonderful. Where's that been for 40 years?” But she likes this. She liked it.

So, on the negative side, you know, my body, part of it's just getting older, right? Part of it's being 69 and all that. But part of it is the bone-marrow transplant. I had two new hips last year. And so there’s collateral damage when they bleach your body with chemo and radiation. I had full-body radiation. So I don't want complain about it, because I'm here, but there is a price tag. So I find my joints are constantly kind of sore and stiff.

And then, the other thing is my filters are thin. I used to have this long path from my brain to my mouth, and I would go through five or six steps of sort of synthesizing.

Al: Mm-hmm.

Alec: I had a conversation last week with a friend, where I just asked a question that was insensitive, because I was thinking.

Al: Yeah.

Alec: And I've been kicking myself ever since I did that. And why did I do that? Well, part of it’s aging. We all know that when you get to seventies and eighties, the filters are thinner. We see that with our grandparents and all. But part of it is, I think, I'm not sure—well, anyway, my filters are too thin, and I say things I regret more often than I used to. I'll say than I used to.

Al: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Well, the list of positives is certainly a long one, Alec. And I mean, all of us being more relational, being a little more empathetic, living in the presence, I mean, that's a spiritual discipline in itself, living in the present versus being so future oriented. I'm in the same boat with you. Having a sharper focus. Yeah. You know, realizing, you know, “Okay. So we've got 10 years,” whatever somebody’s age is, you kind of grow up thinking you're going to live forever. And that really does help us get sharper, no question about it. Yeah.

Well, gosh, we've learned so much about this conversation. I just go back, starting with when you said, “I was hit by a bus,” and, boy, you were. And how you encouraged us that our boards need to talk about succession more than they do. And you're right. And if you're the CEO, it is an important thing to talk about succession, even if you might be a little insecure about the conversation. So it’s still important. And the fact, you know, I love that you had a short-term plan. Again, board leaders, you know, there's a short-term plan, a long-term plan, and you really worked the long-term plan with your leadership development. And now the way you've kind of described spiritual direction, mentoring, and coaching, that's a great paradigm for us to think about as we move forward, and the positives of the Millennials and Gen X generation. There is hope for the future. I think we should all have hope for the future, you know. And as we think about transitioning, an organizing principle for life, what is the organizing principle? I love yours. It's so clear and precise. “I invest in rising leaders.” That's fantastic.

Well, this has been a great conversation. Anything you’d like to add about what we’ve talked about, Alec?

Alec: There is life after senior leadership. And let me say this. So I see people going on two paths. I see people getting fearful, kind of bitter, kind of withdrawn. And then I see other people who flourish. I really want to be one of those second people, right? So I think whatever age the listeners are, say, 30-, 40-, 50-, 60- year old listeners you have on this podcast, what are you going to be like when you're 70 or 75? And what are you doing today to make sure you're in that second category and not the first?

Al: Yeah.

Alec: You know, Paul talks about the polarity of hope and fear. As people get older, they tend to gravitate towards fear; I want to gravitate towards hope.

Al: Amen.

Ladies and gentlemen, if you want to learn more, Alec’s books are available at ivpress.com. That’s InterVarsity Press—ivpress.com. Alec, thank you for all your contributions today. Thank you for your friendship for over 25 years. Most of all, I appreciate your devotion and service to our loving God and your passion for investing in the next generation of Christian leaders. So thank you for taking your time out today and speaking into so many lives.

Alec: Thanks, Al. It’s been a pleasure.

Outro: Thank you for joining us on the Flourishing Culture Podcast and for investing this time in your workplace culture. If there's a specific insight, story, or action step you've enjoyed, please share it with others so they can benefit, too. Please share this podcast with friends on social media, and show your support by rating, reviewing, and subscribing wherever you listen.

This program is copyrighted by the Best Christian Workplaces Institute. All rights reserved. Our social-media and marketing manager is Solape Osoba.

Remember, a healthy workplace culture drives greater impact and growth for your organization. We'll see you again soon on the Flourishing Culture Podcast.